Taiwanese Mandarin to Chinese Mandarin
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calibre2001 -
I usually think I hear zh,ch pronounced as z,c when they speak with a strong minnan accent or
speak minnan more often. IMO actors/actresses in taiwan tv shows tend to speak more standard
mandarin, that's why the zh,ch sounds like zh,ch albeit with a softer touch to it. Or maybe thy
just speak more mandarin than minnan.
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atitarev -
Thanks, Calibre2001, doesn't the majority speaks Mandarin (albeit with the local accent), not
Minnanhua in Taiwan? That's what I hear, anyway, can't confirm.
Quote:
Mandarin is spoken fluently by almost the entire Taiwanese population, except for some elderly
people who were educated under Japanese rule. In the capital Taipei, where there is a high
concentration of Mainlanders whose native language is not Taiwanese, Mandarin is used in greater
frequency than in southern and rural Taiwan.
ganyuehan -
I'm no expert, but have lived in Kaohsiung for 10 years. I would say that Taiwanese, 閩南語 or
台語 is widely spoken in the south, especially among some people who consider themselves
"本省人". There are people that speak fairly standard Mandarin, but others speak a real
Taiwanese Mandarin; the "f" sounds get changed to "h", "zh" turned to "z","越來越" turned to
"en lai en" and "ng" word endings sound more like "n". Other people speak both mandarin and
Taiwanese at the same time.
atitarev -
Thanks, Ganyuehan. To rephrase my question: I'd like to know what type of pronunciation is
considered standard in Taiwan when people are supposed to speak Mandarin (not Minnan). Perhaps,
there is no such thing. Perhaps, it's the one Calibre2001 has described. IMHO, actors or TV
anchors are supposed to speak a standard language, even if this variety is not always followed.
---
I mentioned before a few things that make me think that standard Mandarin pronunciation in Taiwan
is almost as in China.
The famous Taiwanese and Chinese singer Teresa Teng (邓丽君) sang and spoke with an accent,
which is closer to Beijing Mandarin, IMHO (if you take away 儿化 and some minor things, like
的, 得 are 地 all pronounced as "di", not "de").
I have recordings of cartoons made in Taiwan, the zh, ch, sh, etc. sound very standard.
---
I tend to think that pronouncing standard Mandarin in Taiwan would be considered standard, perhaps
need to soften your accent a bit and get rid of 儿化.
ganyuehan -
I think the standards, believe it or not, are not much different. I think it's a similar standard,
but it's just that different people deviate more or less from it(compare 陳水扁's mandarin to
馬英九's). I go to a class here and in the text book there are still 兒's at the end of
words(although I'm told I don't have to say them), and my teacher will correct me if I don't curl
my tongue, or properly say the "ng" sounds at the end. My main point is that when it's taught,
there is a similar standard. Maybe that's still not answering the question.
Do you mean that 的 得 and 地 are always pronounced as "di" in Taiwan? If so, I don't fully
agree with that. In some songs it's sung that way, but I hear a lot of people say them as "de".
Lu -
I think the official standard in Taiwan is very close to the mainland news broadcaster accent,
that is, with retroflexes and some (but not too much) erhua. But I think the only people who
actually speak like this are Huayu teachers.
Apart from that there is the heavy Taiwanese accent, that says ü for yu and u for wu, doesn't
distinguish between -n and -ng, has no retroflexes, can't say the f- (fangfa becomes huanhua), and
says su for si (and shi) and sese for xiexie. This is spoken by people who speak Minnan as their
mother tongue and never learned decent Mandarin (probably through no fault of their own).
Then there is the Mandarin that most people I hear speak. It's not quite standard, but close
enough. It has no erhua at all, and distinguishes between z c s and zhi chi shi, but only a little
bit. This is what I usually hear on tv as well. The people calibre2001 describes are in this group.
And then there are a few Mainlanders who carried over their own accent, or standard Mandarin, from
the mainland. I'd say Deng Lijun is in this group. But this group is getting smaller.
And, of course, there's everything in between those accents. To hear two different ones next to
one another, you could watch the presidential debates between Xie Changting (heavy Minnan accent)
and Ma Yingjiu (general Taiwanese Mandarin). (On the other hand, Ma has a heavy Mandarin accent in
his Taiwanese, whereas Xie speaks that very standard.)
Edit: Ganyuehan, I never hear anyone say di for de, not even when they sing Deng Lijun's songs.
There might be people who say it, but I haven't heard them.
atitarev -
Thanks for your good answers, Ganyuehan and Lu!
As for "di" pronunciation, I agree. I only meant that in songs, at least some, the "de" in
particles is pronounced as "di", which is also a feature of some mainland singers, perhaps as a
classical or high-level pronunciation. I should have made myself clearer. No, I don't think this
is the standard spoken Mandarin, neither mainland, nor Taiwan.
I agree that there are deviations in Mandarin spoken by non-TV folks, very common not only in
Taiwan. Then, IMHO, the Wikipedia articles should not describe the Taiwanese Mandarin as having
features, which are not part of the language, which is taught at school or promoted as standard in
Taiwan. Although, I should give credit to the authors: the word "basilectal" was used to describe
these non-standard features and use "acrolectal" when talking about standard Taiwanese Mandarin:
Quote:
In basilectal Taiwanese Mandarin, sounds that do not occur in Taiwanese are replaced by sounds
from that language.
and
Quote:
In acrolectal Taiwanese Mandarin:
* the retroflex sounds (ch, zh, sh, r) from Putonghua are softened considerably
* the Beijing retroflex "r" (兒) ending is very rarely heard
* the pinyin feng is pronounced as fong
The article is quite interesting and informative, please contribute! They show some dialectal and
foreign words, which penetrated standard Mandarin in Taiwan.
ganyuehan -
Quote:
Edit: Ganyuehan, I never hear anyone say di for de, not even when they sing Deng Lijun's songs.
There might be people who say it, but I haven't heard them.
So basically we agree, right? My meaning is that they're pronounced as "de".
One time at a KTV many years ago I sang a song called "變曲1990" and I was corrected and told to
say a 的as "di". It was a while ago, but it may have been the one in 我的雙眼 by the Chinese
people there. Maybe they were mistaken, but that's what happened.
atitarev -
The common exceptions, are of course, 打的 (from Cantonese), 的确, 目的 (Japanese?) and
others where 的 can sound as di with various tones, not neutral.
--
They say that in Taiwan many foreign names are written more phonetically than in mainland China
and the use of 罗马字 is much higher. So, a Japanese called 鈴木さん (Suzuki-san) will be
called "Suzuki桑", not Língmù xiānsheng. Is there any truth in this? From what I know in
Chinese words are pronounced as they are written following the readings of the characters, so
Japanese names are normally pronounced as they written in Hanzi.
calibre2001 -
Pronouncing 的 as 'di' rather than 'de' apparently has something more to do with making it fit in
better with the music. Can't confirm anything on classical pronounciation.
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